LCR Bus Franchising

[teenagewasteland]

RE: LCR Bus Franchising
Bus deregulation was brought in as a reaction to a percieved Socialist agenda that the Conservatives felt certain large conurbations in the UK were following. It had nothing to do with encouraging competition between operators. Fares went through the roof. As of now, the current £2.20 flat fare across Liverpool exists as a cartel between Arriva and Stagecoach, if we apply pre-dereg values, it works out at around 80p. The top fare on Merseyside on the 25th October 1986 was 40p. I'd say the big operators are doing pretty well for their shareholders, at the expense of the travelling public.

Steve Rotheram is right, but he's not going far enough. For all its' troubles, the previous regime was the custodian of our public transport network, it operated buses cheaply and for the benefit of the population. Did it bother me that a precept on my rate bill was going to Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive to go about their business in a manner to benefit all? Not at all. It still doesn't.

If deregulation has been that good, how comes the basic network of routes in and out of the city is roughly the same as it was before this nonsense was rushed through Parliament by a deranged Nicholas Ridley. Surely, if the system was at fault, the new operators now had the opportunity to rectify it? They haven't, because it was good - a legacy of a proper State funded and managed transport network.

[iMarkeh]

RE: LCR Bus Franchising
It's very easy to say that things worked 'well' before Dereg but what people seem to forget is that buses are very different now. Inflation has happened a lot and so all of these cheap fares may no longer be such cheap fares, local areas have significantly less money than they used to have too. If the funding to commercial bus operators was the same as what was given to councils pre Dereg, you would have thousands more buses on the road. Pre DeReg, the one thing which has killed off the viability of the local buses, concessionary passes, wasn't around.

I think people also have an extremely short memory. Dare we mention Halton Transport which went bust with the council no longer supporting it. As for Warrington, 84% of people say that fares are expensive or very expensive with more than 50% saying that fares represent a poor value for money. Who runs 84% of bus mileage within Warrington.... No.... Can't be.... The municiapal bus operator. (figures from Warringtons bus service improvement plan)
What was a significant contributor to Halton Transport and Avon Bus ceasing trading? The PTE 'MyTicket' which reduced fares to a level which is very low but didn't provide a proper reimbursement for the costs and with no enforcement so people using the ticket who shouldn't be.


People seem to think that going back to pre DeReg, all of the old bus routes will be recreated, services will run every 5 minutes and fares really cheap and that simply isn't what is going to happen. The costs of running buses will be the same, the revenue will be the same (unless fares reduce but then that means reduced revenue). The idea of profit may be gone but costs will increase as unions tend to get their own way more (especially with Labour in power in the area) and also with the local area not buying in bulk (Stagecoach can buy ADL in bulk so get good discounts, a council wouldn't be able to match that) so costs overall would remain likely stable. The subsidy (or lack thereof) will be the same.

You come no better or worse off with a public ran bus network generally speaking. Least not operationally. The only potential change is if councils then become more pro bus because they actually see the benefit but then it also means that stupid scheme created by Anderson end up being pushed through with less opposition because the bus company won't complain and passenger and residents complaints go in the bin.

Evaluate the buses up ran by local councils up and down the country and you can see that their success isn't down to the bus operators ownership, it's down to supportive councils giving public transport priority and providing proper funding. In other areas, they are taking on contracts way out of their areas since the profits made elsewhere can be put back into the network to reduce losses from the town network.

Funny isn't it how the area with the biggest bus usage outside of London is actually Brighton and Hove. An area ran solely by private operators.

Mod edit: Language

[Mayneway]

RE: LCR Bus Franchising

(26/02/2022 10:25)Barney Wrote:  Clearly TfGM cannot proceed with the bidding process whilst a judicial review is being conducted. For those of us with long memories, the Transport Act of 1985 that created the deregulated system that currently exists was also challenged in the courts and subsequently failed.

My view is that this is a desperate delaying tactic by Stagecoach and Diamond and the fact that the Bus Services Act of 2017 is enshrined in law will mean that this appeal will also ultimately prove futile.

Where is this "strong feeling that it will be watered down or dumped altogether"? It seems more like wishful thinking on your part as I haven't seen or read anything to corroborate this assertion. On the contrary, most of the metro mayors seem to be following Andy Burnham's lead and pursuing a franchised bus system.

I work in the industry in Manchester. The big chief of the company I work for informed us a couple of weeks ago about the pause. The reason for the pause is because the date for the results of the inquiry have long passed and TFGM have been told to pause spending, which potentially means it might not go their way. None of us have a crystal ball but the wait is certainly interesting.

[Barney]

RE: LCR Bus Franchising

(26/02/2022 23:05)iMarkeh Wrote:  It's very easy to say that things worked 'well' before Dereg but what people seem to forget is that buses are very different now. Inflation has happened a lot and so all of these cheap fares may no longer be such cheap fares, local areas have significantly less money than they used to have too. If the funding to commercial bus operators was the same as what was given to councils pre Dereg, you would have thousands more buses on the road. Pre DeReg, the one thing which has killed off the viability of the local buses, concessionary passes, wasn't around.

I think people also have an extremely short memory. Dare we mention Halton Transport which went bust with the council no longer supporting it. As for Warrington, 84% of people say that fares are expensive or very expensive with more than 50% saying that fares represent a poor value for money. Who runs 84% of bus mileage within Warrington.... No.... Can't be.... The municiapal bus operator. (figures from Warringtons bus service improvement plan)
What was a significant contributor to Halton Transport and Avon Bus ceasing trading? The PTE 'MyTicket' which reduced fares to a level which is very low but didn't provide a proper reimbursement for the costs and with no enforcement so people using the ticket who shouldn't be.


People seem to think that going back to pre DeReg, all of the old bus routes will be recreated, services will run every 5 minutes and fares really cheap and that simply isn't what is going to happen. The costs of running buses will be the same, the revenue will be the same (unless fares reduce but then that means reduced revenue). The idea of profit may be gone but costs will increase as unions tend to get their own way more (especially with Labour in power in the area) and also with the local area not buying in bulk (Stagecoach can buy ADL in bulk so get good discounts, a council wouldn't be able to match that) so costs overall would remain likely stable. The subsidy (or lack thereof) will be the same.

You come no better or worse off with a public ran bus network generally speaking. Least not operationally. The only potential change is if councils then become more pro bus because they actually see the benefit but then it also means that stupid scheme created by Anderson end up being pushed through with less opposition because the bus company won't complain and passenger and residents complaints go in the bin.

Evaluate the buses up ran by local councils up and down the country and you can see that their success isn't down to the bus operators ownership, it's down to supportive councils giving public transport priority and providing proper funding. In other areas, they are taking on contracts way out of their areas since the profits made elsewhere can be put back into the network to reduce losses from the town network.

Funny isn't it how the area with the biggest bus usage outside of London is actually Brighton and Hove. An area ran solely by private operators.

Is it evident from this and previous posts that you don't like old people using concessionary passes, young people using the MyTicket, Labour politicians or unions. Without the first two groups most buses would be empty most of the day apart from peak times.

I really don't understand your opposition to franchising whilst praising the success of the handful of local councils still running buses: "giving public transport priority and providing proper funding". Isn't this exactly what the franchising model is all about?

Mod edit: Edited quoted text

[Mayneway]

RE: LCR Bus Franchising

(27/02/2022 09:02)Barney Wrote:  Is it evident from this and previous posts that you don't like old people using concessionary passes, young people using the MyTicket, Labour politicians or unions. Without the first two groups most buses would be empty most of the day apart from peak times.

I really don't understand your opposition to franchising whilst praising the success of the handful of local councils still running buses: "giving public transport priority and providing proper funding". Isn't this exactly what the franchising model is all about?

Clearly you don’t have any connections with the industry, let me tell you that the concessionary reimbursements cripple bus companies big and small and reluctantly the fare paying passengers sadly pay more because of this. The system is heavily abused from people borrowing passes they shouldn’t be using to people stopping buses boarding and getting off at the next stop just to get a couple of Metros.
We have huge holes in social care and the money could be much better spent in my opinion.

Mod edit: Edited quoted text

[SK15 GZG (Moderator)]

RE: LCR Bus Franchising

(27/02/2022 10:48)Mayneway Wrote:  Clearly you don’t have any connections with the industry, let me tell you that the concessionary reimbursements cripple bus companies big and small and reluctantly the fare paying passengers sadly pay more because of this. The system is heavily abused from people borrowing passes they shouldn’t be using to people stopping buses boarding and getting off at the next stop just to get a couple of Metros.
We have huge holes in social care and the money could be much better spent in my opinion.

Completely agree

[Barney]

RE: LCR Bus Franchising

(27/02/2022 11:27)SK15 GZG Wrote:  Completely agree

How do you know that I don't have any connection with the bus industry?

All the research shows that the provision of concessionary bus passes is the best and cheapest way of providing social care. Without them many, many elderly and disabled people would simply fester in their home thus adding to the cost of social care.

I agree that there is some abuse of this scheme but nowhere near as much as you are suggesting. The solution is to greatly increase the number of revenue teams on buses, trams and local trains as exists in most continental countries.

Currently, the major (privatised) bus operators are warning that unless they receive large additional (taxpayer) subsidies in the near future there will be severe cuts to services on a par with those last seen in 1986. In essence Stagecoach etc, are saying give us subsidies so that we can pay a dividend to our shareholders. How do reconcile this threat with with your opposition to franchising?

[Mayneway]

RE: LCR Bus Franchising

(27/02/2022 16:31)Barney Wrote:  I agree that there is some abuse of this scheme but nowhere near as much as you are suggesting.

The fact your saying this shows you have no connection to the industry. It’s massively abused.
I had a data collector with me for 3 hours on Friday afternoon and he took 3 concessionary passes off users.

[Barney]

RE: LCR Bus Franchising

(27/02/2022 18:09)Mayneway Wrote:  The fact your saying this shows you have no connection to the industry. It’s massively abused.
I had a data collector with me for 3 hours on Friday afternoon and he took 3 concessionary passes off users.

I have no reason to disbelieve you but what you haven't said is how many concessionary passes were checked during that time. As I said in a previous post, any system is open to abuse unless it is policed and audited correctly. On Merseyside, the old Saveaway scratch tickets were abused as are the current paper day tickets. Also, fraud is not something unique to public transport; the amount of money illegally syphoned off in contracts during the current pandemic proves that.

Anyway, you now seem to be conflating the proposed franchising model in the LCR with the abuse of concessionary passes in TfGM.

[Mayneway]

RE: LCR Bus Franchising

(27/02/2022 18:32)Barney Wrote:  I have no reason to disbelieve you but what you haven't said is how many concessionary passes were checked during that time. As I said in a previous post, any system is open to abuse unless it is policed and audited correctly. On Merseyside, the old Saveaway scratch tickets were abused as are the current paper day tickets. Also, fraud is not something unique to public transport; the amount of money illegally syphoned off in contracts during the current pandemic proves that.

Anyway, you now seem to be conflating the proposed franchising model in the LCR with the abuse of concessionary passes in TfGM.

It was you that brought up concessionary passes in the first place and I’ll say this as my last comment on the subject. I work in the industry and have a great understanding of it. Burnham and his counterpart Mayors want a ‘system like London’, the system in London is heavily propped up by taxpayers and is STILL in massive debt to the tune of £40 million?? Why would anyone want a system that needs such massive propping up??
Fares won’t be any cheaper than they are now, they won’t re-introduce all the lost services and who’s to say we won’t loose more services.
The system isn’t perfect at the moment but it works and it doesn’t cost the tax payer a fortune to prop up.